Installing Edging First

[Granite]

I've been hearing more and more about installing edging before the pavers but I'm not sure I've heard the whole story. Can anyone shed some light on this technique? Thanks!!

[Gail]

There are cost saving advantages to installing edging prior to installation of the pavers.
• Edgings installed prior to paver installation can easily be adjusted to accommodate full pavers, reducing the number of cuts and small pieces. Saving on product and time.
• It gives the customer a better visual image of the size and shape of the project. Creating a better rate of customer satisfaction.
• Any modification to the project size and shape can be made with a minor investment of labor.
• If the edging is rigid enough, the upper edge can be used as a screed rail, reducing the number of rails needed. The fewer rails used the fewer voids that will need to be filled and smooth over. Again saving time which is a cost.
• During the spiking process a contractor can be alerted to soft spots in the base, allowing repairs to the base be readily made without removing pavers and sand.

[AndersonLandscapes]

I started doing this after attending the March Class and have found it to work out quite well. I have the customer also approve the edging/outline before laying pavers to avoid any "I Thought it would look different" situations.

[windsordog]

i found it to be a waste of time, to many changes by customers, even tho they look at it first. it all comes down to what your used to. and how you intend to cut your pavers . this is a nice sight to discuss pavers.

[PaverSlayer]

The strips are not strong enough and dont hold the pavers in good.

[Paver]

The strips are not strong enough and dont hold the pavers in good.
You aren't still using a concrete toe . . . are you?

[windsordog]

cutting in place is easier without edging in the way. much faster to slap it in after.

[Paver]

The actual paver cutting may be faster when cut in place with a demo saw, but you have to screed extra sand, lay extra pavers and use 3 guys to mark with a plastic pipe. Then, after cutting, you need to remove the extra pavers, fix your bond lines, remove the extra sand after installing your soldier course and . . . still install your edging. Does your cutting time saved on the demo saw make up for all the extra labor?

[windsordog]

yes!!! what about the extra time it takes to go along and put in the edging just right, when you could be setting up rails. then mark every paver individually . allot of people dont have the tent stakes. or other marking methods. go back pick them up . give them to the saw guy.... etc. the screeding of extra sand? come on you should over screed alittle any way. throw the cut pavers into a wheelbarrow and dump them, and your bond lines should allready be straight if your laying them right. take a shovel run it along the pavers to remove extra sand and slap in the edging. 3 guys to set up a cut line? wow I now know why you think it takes to long.

[Granite]

It's been awhile now with no further comments . . . no other opinions out there? For a time you guys had a nice little heated debate going - what happened?

I made the effort to use edging and found that generally I like it. It does need to be strong to screed off it (just like was said earlier). The 1st one I tried didn't work but the pave edge did. One problem I had was pulling it up to make adjustments but I think I got that figured out. Any other edging installation tips out there?

[Zebs]

I have found that as long as I prep enough area around where i am laying pavers to allow to move the edging afterwords to allow more full pavers to limit the amount of cuts work great for me and as far as using the edging as a screed guide I use more stakes to hold it in place but I don;t drive them all the way in

[windsordog]

this site is DEAD. To bad I thought this would really get used allot. As for the edging I stand by my earlier statement, putting in the edgeing first is a waste of time and effort. think outside the box people. the paver bible book is a great referance , BUT not always the way to go. If I am wrong let me know I love to debate! right or wrong.

[windsordog]

Why is it so dead on here, no comments on edging first?:eek: people must not believe that his is the preferred choice

[Paver]

Arguments have been made for both methods, I guess everyone has their own preference. At least most have learned not to use a concrete toe.

[windsordog]

what about a cammel toe, ahhh come on just kidding. I cant believe there are so few on here talking pavers, you go to seminars in the spring and people are all over trying to find out stuff. I guess this forum has not been advertised enough or somthing?

[Paver]

Maybe alot of people in our industry aren't used to using Forums to ask questions :confused:

[Gail]

this site is DEAD. To bad I thought this would really get used allot.
The best way to grow this site is for you to tell your buddies about this site. Word of mouth (or email) is the best form of communication.

[Orchard Ex]

Many of the times I've tried to post on here I get database errors returned. Then I try to send an email to the admin, which bounces back as undeliverable. Last time I sent a PM to the admin which was never acknowledged. Also, the constant reloading of the ads on the right side of the browser is annoying when you aren't on a cable modem.

[Admin]

The Hardscape Contractor FORUM has had some technical difficulties recently. We believe they have been fixed and have made some adjustments to help this site to serve it's users better. Please continue to visit and contribute to the forum. Thank-you for letting us know about your difficulties.

[windsordog]

true dat on the spreading the word. maybe you should think about handing out some literature about this in Nashville or the spring seminars, Or look to advertise it somehow, contractor lists distributers.etc. maybe you should hire me to come up with more............ Well maybe you cant afford me.

[windsordog]

Anyone have a new perspective on this no win situation. Still think it the biggest waste of time out there to install the edging first.:cool:

[pavers4u]

A combination of laying the edging first and after seems to work well for us. We like using the edging to get natural looking curves by installing first and working off one side of installed straight edging, then after the installation is done install the opposite side edging.

[Paver]

I guess we'll never come to an agreement on this one.

[Granite]

I think the obvious answer is that there is never only one way to do things. Some jobs it's better to install the edging first - other times it's better not to. You just need to think about these types of things when planning your job. I think it's a lack of planning and poor foremanship that leads to a lot of the inefficiency you often see on paver jobs.

[mrhodus]

I guess we'll never come to an agreement on this one.

Paver, I couldn't agree with you more. I argue with some of my crews all the time about how much faster piece cutting is than cutting in place.

The key thing to consider, as a business owner, is the total amount of "man hours" spent cutting vs. the amount of "working hours". My guys will tell me they can cut 50' in a hour by cutting in place, but what they forget to consider is the fact that, like Paver said in a previous post, they might be cutting 50' in one hour but they also have four guys involved in cutting that 50' which equates to 4 man hours. They are now only cutting 12' per hour. There is no reason why an experienced installer can't cut 20-25LF per man hour with nothing more than a table saw and a piece of soap stone.

Thats my thought.

See ya at Hardscape 2009

[sandman]

Mr Hodus,

We will be exhibiting at the GIE show in Louisville next month, and I was seeing if you were planning on attending. It could be a really great time to sit down and go through all the product lines Pave Tech has that could separate yourself from your competition. Took a look at your website, and it looks like you guys do good work! Hope to see you there

[Essentially Stone]

Here in Canada, many of the Landscaping companies like ourselves, Essentially Stone Landscaping have taken to using concrete as our edging as opposed the plastic edging. The reasons for this is that with fibre in the concrete it provides a stronger support for the edge of any patio, driveway, pathway and lasts alot longer. Not to mention it is visually more appealing.

http://www.essentiallystone.com/canyon.html

http://www.essentiallystone.com/Valley.html

To accomplish this once the brick area is complete, then run a bead of concrete along the edge and trowel flat at an angle of 45 degrees away from the top. Try to always have the concrete start sloping 1/2 an inch away from the top of the brick before starting the slope, for visual appeal once finished. If butting up to turf then make make the angle steeper to allow for good depth of soil for turf.

In order to make the concrete most effective, make sure your solid crush base is prepped an extra 6 inches to a foot so that you can build the concrete edging on a solid foundation.

hope this helps

admin@essentiallystone.com

[Paver]

So concrete doesn't crack in Canada during freeze/thaw conditions? Interesting . . .

[Essentially Stone]

the concrete surprisingly enough works really well even with freeze and thaw conditions here! We do add fibres for added strength tho.

[BolUN]

topic close?

[NolUUn]

interesting discussion! :)

[klaf]

I never install the snap edge prior to laying the stone. As a business owner i know that saving time in labour is great but the qaulity of your work is the most important, and personally I believe that installing the edging first doesn't allow for that.

Very rarely does it end up in the right place and pulling out edging is not fun. Also snap edge itself can be a very useful tool for marking your curves and in my opinion the best. Your best option is to overgrade and overlay the area, lay the snapedge ontop of the stone and shape it to the curve you want. Then mark it and cut it. And I can't believe people still cut stones in place. You wreck your grade, tonnes of dust, and your cuts are never as percise with a drysaw as with a standup wetsaw. So what if it takes a little longer to finish. Cutting is what will make or break your job. Obviously for a straight line you just need a simple chalk line to mark your cuts.

[Paver]

OK, on straight runs, where you are trying to use full paver units to eliminate cutting it doesn't always make sense to put the edging in first on all sides, I'll give you that. But, on curves, where you need to cut anyway, how does laying the edging on top of the pavers help you create a better curve than laying it on the base? You already know roughly where the edge of the pavement will be based on your excavation, so it is just a matter of creating the curve you like with the edging and spiking it in place.
Plus, you and I are on the same page with cutting the pavers on a table saw versus with a hand-held, so why create all the extra work with the overlay? If you are worried about your guys marking the pavers correctly for cutting, there are simple tools out there to transfer the shape of the edging curve to the body pavers for the soldier course.

[Granite]

Since first asking this question almost exactly 3 years ago, I've gained a lot more experience instaling pavers. There's no doubt that installing edging first is often the best way to go. But as stated by others, it not always the best. The answer I'd give to this question, as some have already given, is: figure it out based on the specific job conditions and requirements. To blindly adhere to a "1-method is always best" is foolish and bound to cost you money long term.

[windsordog]

klaf is so on this. This is exactly what i was trying to say a long time ago. And paver what happens if your client/customer comes up and says Yah ,Hmmmm maybe we can move this out 3 inches, or in or whatever, now you have wasted all this time pre- installing your edgeing and installing it again insted of laying it out for them to see on top of the pavers. Marking it out and cutting them in place, Why in the world do you think cutting them in place takes so long. Lets see, over laying them cutting them in one nice swoop throwing the pieces in the skid bucket or wheelbarrow useing the overlayed ones for your soldier coarse if thats whats called for. I just dont get it, In our company there is no way that setting the edgeing first is faster, NO WAY. Lets see if this can grt this debate going again, I havent been on here for a long time. So lets get this thing going.

[Paver]

And paver what happens if your client/customer comes up and says Yah ,Hmmmm maybe we can move this out 3 inches, or in or whatever, now you have wasted all this time pre- installing your edgeing and installing it again insted of laying it out for them to see on top of the pavers.

Its easier to pull spikes and move the edging a little compared to laying all those extra pavers and having to pick them back up again.

[Stacie]

If you are installing pavers properly it is not possible to install the edge restraints first!

Some have said to use the preinstalled edge restraint as a sceeding rail.
This cannot be done because you must screed past your feild of bricks by 6-8".

It makes it harder to mark and cut using a table saw or hand saw in place.

And most imprtant it is impossible to install the edge restraint properly. That is to say that you should build up the edge of the restraits with a little material so that in leans into the bricks a little bit thus holding tight agaist the bricks.

[Paver]

Some have said to use the preinstalled edge restraint as a sceeding rail.
This cannot be done because you must screed past your feild of bricks by 6-8".

Please elaborate, why must you screed 6-8” past your field of pavers?

[Paver]

And most imprtant it is impossible to install the edge restraint properly. That is to say that you should build up the edge of the restraits with a little material so that in leans into the bricks a little bit thus holding tight agaist the bricks.

Just when I thought I’d heard it all . . .